220WA Issues

[Anonymous]

I bought a 2002 22 ft Walkaround in September from a dealer that had 5 hours on it. The boat yard was changing hands at the time and 3 Shamrocks were not going to the new owners so the old owner was looking to make a deal. I learned a hard lesson here, no one wants to deal with me now, not even Shamrock or Palmer.

Of the laundry list of problems, these are the main ones.

There is a fairly serious cavitation problem (more on this below).
Both autobilge pumps and the raw/bait pump don't work.
A latch in the cabin hatch is missing but the holes in the glass at too big.

The new owner of the boat yard keeps referring me to the old owner. The old owner is trying to be helpful but so far has been completely ineffective. The new Shamrock dealership in my area is merely a small office in a marina 'strip mall' and though they did contact Palmer, they advised me to contact the old owner. The old owner told me not to work on the boat or I'll void the warranty.

I called Shamrock in Florida 3 weeks ago to ask about this (I had a number since I bought some extra flush mount rods holders that say Shamrock) but have yet to hear back from them.

I called Palmer in WA and talked to a very nice person there, she took my info and said they'd get back to me soon. 6 days later I called back and she went to get answers to my problems.

On the cavitation issue, no resolution.

On the auto bilge pumps, I've been told I should replace them and send the old units back to Shamrock for a determination of failure. If they find the pumps are at fault, they will reimburse me for the pumps. I asked about the labor, they're supposed to get back to me.

On the raw/bait pump, same deal though I informed them I know the pump works because I switched the connection between the fresh water pump and the raw water pump and it's working. So the problem is wiring and how am I going to fix that and send in defective parts?

On the hatch latch, they don't know how we're going to fix this problem. I now know one of the other 22's at the yard had this problem also. The problem is the holes for the screws are about twice the diameter as required.

Bottom line is I'm most worried about the cavitation. I've read the posts here about cavitation and though slowing down is an option, I'm being passed by every other boat out there. This isn't my first boat or day on the water so I do believe there is a problem.

I'm a little worried about all the pumps just because I concerned there may be an underlying wiring issue. But, if I had to replace a couple of pumps that should have been taken care of under warranty, it's not going to kill me.

I can get the hatch latch fixed also. But, that's not really the point. You have to shake some problems out of a new boat, that's expected, but I do expect these problems to be rectified via the warranty. I've been trying to get this process under way for 4 months with absolutely no movement. Salmon season is 6 weeks away and I'm concerned I'll still be fighting this then.

Does anyone have any advice?

Thanks.
bo

[easytimes455]

You seem to have determined there is a cavitation problem, but you don't explain the problem. I'm no expert but many owner diagnosed cavitation problems don't wind up being actual cavitation.

You mention being passed by other boats, but never mention how fast you are going, or what kind of boats pass you... beyond ALL. I mean name them... and how they are powered. If you have done any reading on this site, you know by now these boats are no speed burners.

I understand your anger, I went through a similar situation with my boat for two years, before I finally settled into acceptance. Remember one thing. If the boat, indeed, has all the problems you state, and they are unfixable, you are stuck. Either you find a way to have them fixed or sell the boat at a loss, for being damaged goods.

Did you do a sea trial in the boat before you bought it? If it had a cavitation problem, it would have shown at that time. Cavitation isn't something that comes and goes.

If you can't answer any of the questions I have asked, you are evidently trolling, in Lap's terminology, and we have no use for trollers. If you honestly need help, drop the intensity a notch or two and let someone try to help you... but first some details are necessary.

I know when I bought my boat, I had some issues, too... but KCS never heard about them. My dealer handled the majority of them. With the changeover to Palmer, I'm sure things are hitting them a mile a minute. They just got the Shamrock factory... how about give them a chance to catch a breath. So far, Bo seems fairly attuned to the buyers of new boats.
Charles

[Anonymous]

I'd love for this not to be a cavitation problem. One thing I'm a little worried about is the location of my transducer (I bought the boat with an installed electronics package). I'm going to measure exactly where this thing is but the boat isn't here at home.

This 'cavitation' tends to happen in medium chop, say 2-3 feet, and off SF it's rarely less than that. At speeds of over about 15 knots it will cavitate on nearly every bump. Trimming the nose down does help but it wanders pretty badly then.

The other boats passing me are generally in the same size, most powered by outboards. But there are plenty of I/O and inboard machines out there also. I've only had this boat on the water two days, mostly break in speeds. No sea trail (won't do that again) but if we had it would have just been in the Bay and I doubt we would have experienced any bumps that would have shown the problem. I guess I can't give you a specific boat that's passing me when I slowing down to avoid this 'cavitation'.

I'm not sure what 'trolling' means in this context but it seems to be a derogatory term. I can tell you that at this point I am not looking to badmouth Shamrock or Palmer, I just want my boat to work as advertised. You mentioned that you had problems with our boat but the dealer dealt with them. I would just like the same consideration. I've had this boat for nearly 6 months and the problems it's had since day one are still unaddressed. I don't really have much more time than this to let Palmer "catch it's breath". I'd like this boat to work out but if it's not going to, I need to move on. My boat was purchased with a one year warranty. Someone is responsible for that warranty.

Please don't confuse brevity with intensity. I purposely tried not to write too long of a post worrying that someone wouldn't read it due to it's length. I just tried to relay the facts. There are more problems that I have left off like the lack of a promised heat exchanger flush system and no documentation (owners manual type stuff). This was my first post here and I was hoping someone had a similar situation and had some advice (though I don't wish this on anyone). I wasn't really expecting to solve my technical problems with this post since I posted to "Complaints, Gripes, Beefs and Moans" rather than the Mechanics Corner.

Thanks.
bo (not Bo Palmer)

PS. I noticed you (easytimes455) posted a computer related issue so I'll ask this question. If I try to put in my user name "onobo" in the first post or this reply, it says that name is already taken.

[easytimes455]

You created a profile... now you just have to login to use it. You are the San Francisco physicist, aren't you? You are on the members list. You will need to enter your password.

I, personally refrain from using the forum's auto logon... since I had problems with that at first. I just put a link to the site on my browser's link bar and click it when I want to come here... I use Firefox, so it takes care of logging in for me... I just hit the button and start reading.

Think of your boat as obeying the String Theory more than relativity, even though they are in relatively opposite realms of their perceived theories. A little physics facetiousness. Sorry.

You keep saying cavitation, but massive cavitation is rare. Mild cavitation won't always have noticeable symptoms while the boat is running. It will show up as burn spots on the propeller. You may mean ventilation, which is air finding its way around the propeller and causing the engine to rev, because of a lack of purchase in the water. Improperly mounted hull fixtures can contribute to that, but more likely it's a bent or broken propeller. My bet would be that the boat needs a prop reconditioning. My boat was like that when I first got it. I could do about 18 mph at 4000 rpm. Reconditioning the prop brought it to cruise speeds of 26-31 mph at 2800-3200 rpm, under various conditions.

The only other thing that happens is not typical of Shamrocks... and that's blowout. We're talking high powered boats being unable to reach their ultimate top speed.

By the way, don't expect your boat to keep up with the outboards and stern drives that are powered close to the maximum hp their hulls allow. Outboards especially can run at very near their maximum rpm without much damage... we can't. My cruise rpms are fairly typical for most Shamrocks or almost any inboard, for that matter, unless you make enough money to replace engines frequently.

Trolling is what people from other sites do because they are jealous of the camaraderie and civility of this site. They come in and cast aspersions about Shamrocks to get something stirred up, then go back to their sites and laugh about it. We have much more of a brotherhood, here, and don't put up with that crap... so anyone who is grinding about our boat brand will be suspected of trolling on their first few posts. I went through the same process, so don't feel like no Lone Ranger. If your on the up and up, that will change. Our responses become more plentiful and helpful as the intensity of the rhetoric recedes... as you are noticing.

Actually, your problems don't sound so bad, by comparison to some I've heard. These are great boats, once you get them sorted out. When you put the time and effort into them, they become the equivalent of much more expensive boats, mainly because they last a very long time, almost no matter what you do to them.

There are other California Shamrockers and you may be able to link up with them, and get your boat sorted out, even if you don't get any help. I wouldn't doubt Bo Palmer is reading these posts right now... or very soon will be. He seems genuinely interested in his boat brands doing well after the sale. OffShoreGary on the other forum just made a comment about that very issue.
Charles

[onobo]

Thanks. You've got the right SF physicist. I logged in proprerly and the user name section doesn't appear so I'm guessing it will use my user name now.

I've never heard the term ventillation, I've always heard this and cavitation lumped into one term. I think you are correct and I have a ventillation problem. I don't see any visible damage on the prop but I know it doesn't take much to get them out of sorts. Maybe I should get the prop reconditioned before I start worrying about the placement of the transducer?

I've always been a fan of Shamrocks and went to the boatyard looking for one. The new ownership already had salesmen in the yard and they did everything they could to talk me into a Boston Whaler. I've always liked the keel drive and the fact that the transom is so open. Mine has a great cockpit. I just hope I can get to the bottom of these problems to fish. As I said, I can handle replacing a pump or two, it's a potential wiring problems and this ventillation problem that scares me.

I don't expect to be the fastest boat on the water but I do need a little speed even in fair seas.

Thanks.
bo

[Hav'nfun]

Every keeled Shamrock I've been on will venilate in certain rough seas. I believe this is due to hull design and prop placement. With the wave period just right, the stern lifts and allows air to froth around the prop for a few seconds. It doesn't hurt anything, and the only symptom is an increase in engine speed for a short time. Consider it an artifact of the Shamrock mystique. When this happens adjust your speed or angle into the waves.

Almost any boat not powered by oars or sails will pass you when the sea are calm. Upon your return in the afternoon when the wind has kicked up waves, you will be the one passing. Just plan your trip with a max speed of 20 -22 mph or 18-20 knots.

Shamrocks are great boats. You'll be comfortable in yours when most other boats, even those several feet longer are heading in or remaining in port. That fact helps offset that fact they are slower due to the increased wetted surface.


Tom

[micky692002]

Mine is a 20 cc 1984 and in rough seas I can see everybodys boat flying out of the water and mine going straight into the waves navigating like a big boat and I always pass them.

[No Tacks]

:D hi ya onobo, first off i agree with the grabbin air prop thing..all the shammys do it. I have a 26 ft pre mackinaw "hardtop" and agree that adjusting the speed and trim tabs up in a following sea will greatly reduce your prop air issue.My only other boat was a 1985 shamrock 20ft cuddy cabin and the only reason i sold it was my back could not take the pounding for any long length of time.When i went to the 26footer my back problem was solved and alot less air grab on the prop on the 26 than the 20....West coast ocean can and always will be alot rougher than our east coast ocean..I think you will probably go to a mackinaw 26 in a year or two anyway..Longer,wider,deeper in the water,and even more stable than a 22footer...Wow you guys are pretty smart here.Almost had to pull out the dictionary 4 or 5 times..Onobo good luck with your minor issues here.. :D

[onobo]

My boat's stored outdoors so when I went to pump the water out (we've had rain and my autobilge pumps still don't work) I measured the placement of the transducer. It's 106 inches in front of the propeller, which is about 10 inches from the transom. It's about 5-6 inches from the keel on the starboard side. It's mounted in front of the engine, just behind the starboard battery. Does this seem like the proper placement?

Though I picked out the electronics package, the dealer had a shop install it all. The transducer is pretty big, it's a Furuno 525ST bronze thru hull.

If this has to be moved, how bad is having to fix the hole in the hull?

Thanks.
bo

[easytimes455]

Hey Bo,
I'm not quite getting your transducer location. I'm using a Raytheon with a similar thru-hull type, with that big hunkabronze in the water.

Mine is just aft of the engine and fairly close to the starboard stringer that forms the tank hold wall. It's just aft of the shaft flange on the back of the transmission.

What you say about the propeller makes it sound like it's not very close to the transom. Mine is within ten inches... just guessing. You and I have the same bottom... just a different top, so they should be very similar.

These pictures show my boat's attitude on the water. Yours may ride with the bow a little lower, since you actually stand in front of your engine, rather than behind it, like I do. The first picture actually shows the boat with a little down tab, if you can tell.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/easydoesit455/detail?.dir=6a89&.dnm=39b6.jpg&.src=ph
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/easydoesit455/detail?.dir=6a89&.dnm=d898.jpg&.src=ph

The location you describe in front of the engine sounds more like how they mount them on the 260's, which appear to ride with the bow a little lower. The transducer on my boat sits just behind me to the starboard side as I'm standing at the helm, if you can tell, by looking at that picture.

The forward bilge pump on my boat failed, as well. When I replaced it, I drilled a small hole in the access cover and put a stainless steel bolt through it. Then I put one of those zip strips made with the screw-mount hole on it and fastened it to the bolt. Then I secured all the wires to the bottom of the cover, so they don't lay in the water and slosh around. The rear pump almost never works, but I can turn it on.
Charles

[onobo]

Argh, I hope this doesn't post twice, somehow the last one didn't make it.

Charles, I think you may be walking me through this ventilation problem. I don't have photos of my boat underway yet but I have a stock Shamrock photo I lifted from someplace when I was looking at this boat. If you look at the photo, of course the back to back seats cover the engine, the transducer is mounted about at the front edge of the forward facing seat about 10 inches starboard from the centerline. It looks plausible that this could generate some bubbly stream directly to the prop. What do you think?

My boat didn't come with the accessory on the rear facing seat in the photo.

While I was writing this post, I got an email from Palmer Marine stating "Bo Palmer had talked to the new Shamrock dealer in my area and if I take my boat there, they will fill out the warranty card". Good news. Then I got a call from the old boat yard owner saying he's talked to the new boat yard owner (no longer the Shamrock dealer) and they want me to take the boat there tomorrow to have the pumps and hatch fixed. Quite a bit of action in the last few days given I've gotten no where in 6 months. I may get to fish this boat soon afterall.

Thanks.
bo

[easytimes455]

I think it's reasonable to say... "we know the owner".

From everything I've seen on this forum, I don't know if you could do better than Shamrock, for the support you can obtain here.

If your transducer is as far forward as the front of the engine, it's not bubbling your prop, I don't think.

I believe you'll be in good shape before much longer.
Good deal,
Charles

[easytimes455]

Don't take those brochure pictures too literally. Bet yours will never look like this:
http://shamrockboats.com/shamrock/content/models/220P/introduction.jpg
I know mine doesn't look like this:
http://shamrockboats.com/shamrock/content/models/220S/introduction.jpg
You can't see the sides of my boat underway.
Charles

[onobo]

My worry is that is the transducer is up near the water/hull interface, it could cause bubbles that get to the prop. I'll bet is someone runs on my starboard side, they'll see my transducer in the chop.

I'm enclosing a photo looking forward from the prop.

Thanks for all the help.
bo

[easytimes455]

Whatever it is... I don't think it's that transducer. If it runs out of the water while your up and running, it my not read, but it shouldn't bother the prop. Mine is much further back than that.

Have you inspected the bright spots on your prop? Is that water burn? You just might have some cavitation, there, if it has a little errosion on it. But you can ventilate and have cavitation at the same time. What you hear is the ventilation. Cavitation is normally more subtle, when it's by itself.

If I were to venture a guess in a sporting situation, while offering a bet... I'd go with the prop having a problem. It needs to look better than that. A reconditioning would do wonders, I'm sure.

Here's a picture of my prop, not that it's a good example, but it's not full of patina.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/easydoesit455/detail?.dir=d7bb&.dnm=f3a3.jpg&.src=ph
Charles

[Hav'nfun]

After seeing the photo of your prop I too recommend it be reconditioned. I highly encourage you to find a prop shop that has "Prop Scan" technology. Your 4 blade prop will be a thing of beauty after the recondition. You will also gain speed and efficiency.

Tom

[onobo]

10-4, I'll look into that. I hope such a reconditioning won't change my 'bottom of the throttle' speed which is where I troll for salmon. Right now the speed isn't too bad but if it increases, that will be a problem. I see buys dragging buckets to slow down, that's just not something I will do.

In Northern California most of the boats used to 'mooch' for salmon but the regs were changed to require the use of zero offset circle hooks. Circle hooks don't work very well for salmon, they don't turn and run off so now everyone trolls. I don't think I've ever missed a tuna will a circle hook but went 2 for 15 on salmon one day last year. Both were gut hooked completely defeating the circle hook program. The best plan seems to be to leave the rod in the holder until the thing is hooked!

I think we're going to seatrial the boat next week. The plan is to pull the transducer for a second run. I'll report the results no matter what we find.

There is a Prop Scan certified shop about 90 miles away from me in Sacramento. My Mom lives there, I'll just tell her I made a special trip to see her! :)

Thanks.
bo