Diesel choices for 22 1990 stalker?????Help

[tunaman552]

I am trying to narrow down which diesel to replace my tired gas engine 351 indmar ford.Yanamr looks good but what else can I choose from that will fit ect.
Thanks,
Tunaman552
22" Stalker 1990.:confused:

[Rejoice]

Shamrock currently offers two diesel engines for that boat and I believe they are both good options. Yanmar 200 / 240 hp, I would include a trolling valve if you do much trolling.

Rich

[submariner]

I would say either the Yanmar 170 or 240 hp. My 22 Stalker has the 170 and ran in the mid twenties with good fuel consumption. My Shamrock got lots of use as a work boat even pulling a 15 ton submarine and the engine never gave any major problems. My problem is the company that had it changed the prop 4 times before I purchased it. Now I only get 19 knots at 2750 rpm w.o.t. and they don't remember the original prop size. My gear ratio is 1:56 1 . Maybe someone has one like this and tell me what size prop to use.

[Mistress]

Sub,

get that fixed ASAP. Easiest way to kill a diesel short of contaminated fuel is to overload it with too much prop.

Are you getting full+ rpm in neutral? Any smoke? Got egt or boost gages?

[fisholic]

You can also consider yanmar's new generation diesel engines, the BY series (BMW/YANMAR joint venture).
Starting on the "small" (550lb! w/o gear) 180hp, 4 cil, that can achieve something like 4,5 GPH @ 3000 rpms!
In case of being short of hp's, you have the 6 cil. w/ 220 and 260 hps, which are also considerably small (for 6 cil. diesel engs) w/ 680lb and also impressive GPHs (6GPH @ 3000rpm for the 220hp)

I'm putting the 260hp in my 246WA. (Starting next week! :D )

[tunaman552]

Whats the BY 260hp roughly going for installed?I think 260 might be a bit much what do you think?:D

[fisholic]

Whats the BY 260hp roughly going for installed?I think 260 might be a bit much what do you think? :D

You mean $$$? A Pit of it... :shock:
260 too much?... Well, it weights the same as the 220, and you'll always have a couple of spare hp's! ;)

Also, the 260 reaches max. torque @2500rpm, with aprox. 200hp's on the crankshaft, burning 5GPH's...

[Mistress]

Something to think about:

In order to make use of the additional hp, you need to prop up. This in turn increases your idle speed. Though the Yanmar has a wider rpm range than my Cummins, it can still be an issue. My Mack idles at 5+ knots with 210 hp w/ 16x17 running 1:1 gear.

Make sure you have clearance for intended prop too. Sure you can almost always go up in pitch alone, but ideally props like to be "square".

Trolling speed, close quarter handling and no wake zones come into play with the increased speed at idle.

From what I've heard, those with 22's and 170 hp Yanmars feel it's a good match.

[fisholic]

Something to think about:

In order to make use of the additional hp, you need to prop up. This in turn increases your idle speed. Though the Yanmar has a wider rpm range than my Cummins, it can still be an issue. My Mack idles at 5+ knots with 210 hp w/ 16x17 running 1:1 gear.

Make sure you have clearance for intended prop too. Sure you can almost always go up in pitch alone, but ideally props like to be "square".

Trolling speed, close quarter handling and no wake zones come into play with the increased speed at idle.

From what I've heard, those with 22's and 170 hp Yanmars feel it's a good match.


Yap! That´s the thing to worry about! (aside from $$$)
Maybe the 4BY180 would be the choice...

[Mistress]

I guess you could play around with gear ratios too when propping. I tend to discount gear ratios, as both of my Shammys have been 1:1's. It's easier to tune with props, but you gotta be in the ballpark with gears before you start.

[submariner]

Sub,

get that fixed ASAP. Easiest way to kill a diesel short of contaminated fuel is to overload it with too much prop.

Are you getting full+ rpm in neutral? Any smoke? Got egt or boost gages?
I'm turning up 3100 in neutral. The prop that came with the boat is a 15x18 . I think maybe a 15x16 would be good. Anyway I don't want to run the boat until I get the correct prop.

[Mistress]

What's your rated max rpm? Aren't Yanmars up around 3400?

[fisholic]

I guess you could play around with gear ratios too when propping. I tend to discount gear ratios, as both of my Shammys have been 1:1's. It's easier to tune with props, but you gotta be in the ballpark with gears before you start.

Regarding Trolling speed and close quarter handling, trolling valve may solve it...
In my case, I inicially ordered the 4LHP, 240hp w/ the 1:1,51 ZF gear, for whitch I had already the PROP!
As guys from yanmar informed that no longer would be possible to supply that engine (as explained in another thread "Yanmar common rail engines"), I decided to get the 260hp (instead of the 220hp) with the now presented KANSAKI gear w/ the "obvious" option of 1:1,58 ratio (1:1 or 1:1,24 or 1:2).
Just hope I can still use the same prop...

[Mistress]

Be careful with that trolling valve. If you have to give her some revs to maneuver you can fry your clutches in short order. The only valve I've ever run would automatically kick out when you shifted gears (F to R).

[fisholic]

Be careful with that trolling valve. If you have to give her some revs to maneuver you can fry your clutches in short order. The only valve I've ever run would automatically kick out when you shifted gears (F to R).

Understood. I won't use it much... only for down-rigging and kingfish trolling in dark waters, which I do occasionally...
About the prop, how does it sound to you???

[Mistress]

I need your waterline length, max rpm, displacement and prop diam. to enter it into the calculator.

Based on some assumptions you can't swing a big enough prop with a 1.58 trans.

Again..I assumed a lot, but came up with 14x16 w/ 1:1 trans.

<<<4000#, 20' WLL, 260 hp @ 3400 rpm and 14" wheel = 39 knots @ WOT (15 gph), 26 knots at 2500 (6 gph)>>>

[fisholic]

Mistress,

What mean is that I have already the prop that is used in the this boat with the 4LHA (240hp), 1.51 gear ratio and max rpm=3800.
Now, I will have the 6BY260, 1.58 gear and max rpm=4000.

I have some hopes that it will be ok... :confused:

[Mistress]

Mistress,

What mean is that I have already the prop that is used in the this boat with the 4LHA (240hp), 1.51 gear ratio and max rpm=3800.
Now, I will have the 6BY260, 1.58 gear and max rpm=4000.

I have some hopes that it will be ok... :confused:

My calculator says the 1.58:1 is a no go. It came out with some outrageous diam/pitch. 1:1 or thereabouts was THE gear reccomended.

If you've done the math and are comfortable with it...then 240 vs 260 hp wouldn't be much of a change. Going up 20 hp and up 0.07 in gear would leave your prop on the underpropped side. Better that direction than the other. Boats don't get lighter.

Quite seriously I'd recheck those calcs tough. They were off the chart with the calculator on www.boatdiesel.com. Using similar assumptions for yours as mine...my boat is dead on with the calculator. I think www.thehulltruth.com has a calculator too.

EDIT: I redid the calcs for 260 hp @ 4000

Gear Ratio Shaft RPM Dia. Pitch
0.6 6667 9 8
0.8 5000 11 11
1 4000 13 14 <---most efficient
1.2 3333 14 17
1.4 2857 15 20
1.6 2500 17 22


What wheel do you have? Where did you reference the prop and gear for a 240 Yanmar in a 246 from?

[fisholic]

Good Morning!... ooops sorry! Good night! :)
I got it from Shamrockboats, based on the normal diesel version of the 246.
Today I'll pass by the workshop were the boat is and check for the prop specs, and them let you know.

[fisholic]

EDIT: I redid the calcs for 260 hp @ 4000

Gear Ratio Shaft RPM Dia. Pitch
0.6 6667 9 8
0.8 5000 11 11
1 4000 13 14 <---most efficient
1.2 3333 14 17
1.4 2857 15 20
1.6 2500 17 22

What wheel do you have? Where did you reference the prop and gear for a 240 Yanmar in a 246 from?

The Prop I have is a 18R20.
With your figures, w/ 1.6 ratio (the closest to 1.58 ), it's gives a 17/22 prop... (?)

[SCOOTER]

The Prop I have is a 18R20.
With your figures, w/ 1.6 ratio (the closest to 1.58 ), it's gives a 17/22 prop... (?)


My fathers boat (26' Express w/a Yanmar 4LHA-STE 230hp w/ZF 630A 1.6:1 gear) has either an 18 x 18 or 18 x 20 4-blade. Not exactly sure which, as it has been stamped twice. I'll have it scanned the next time it comes off.

If you've got the stock prop for a 246, the New Yanmar isn't going to have any trouble swinging it with a 1.58:1 gear. You'll probably just need to fine tune it.

His boat is heavier than yours & you've got a few extra ponies.

[Mistress]

I didn't realize the 246 had so much clearance for prop diam. My 26' keeled boat only swings 16".

I'd think you'd be OK...if anything underpropped. I'd rather see you underpropped than over propped or with a gear ratio that just doesn't make sense.

All the calculators are just estimators anyways. Now with some known numbers, tweeked to give real life numbers, props can be compared quite accurately.

[fisholic]

I believe the prop will be just fine!... Now I just can't think of anything else than water testing it!!!
BTW, engine is here already and it looks great! Quite “small” I should say, for a 6 cyl…

[SCOOTER]

Be sure to take & posts some pics.:)

[fisholic]

Be sure to take & posts some pics.:)

Here's the FIRST one! :-D


1831

[Mistress]

Schweet. You must be stoked. I've never seen $20K in a box.

[fisholic]

Schweet. You must be stoked. I've never seen $20K in a box.

You bet... :shock:
It looks and … SMELLS good!
I'm still asking to myself "How the hell do those 260hp fit inside this diesel?" :confused:
It is amazingly small… (650lb!...)

I'm sure it will be worth every coin!

[Kurt]

Heh! That looks like a K & N air cleaner on that puppy. Is that one of the new BMW based Yanmars?

[fisholic]

Heh! That looks like a K & N air cleaner on that puppy. Is that one of the new BMW based Yanmars?

Yes it is!

...The 52hp Perkins I had in my 1980 Nicholson 38 sail boat was about half of its size! (And weight!) :o

[tunaman552]

Well all you guys are real helpful on helping me decide what to do with my 22 stalker. I pulled the trigger sat. and found a 4lh-stp 240hp with low hours on it. It cam e from a dealer here in the NE and I have some questions for the install.

1. I have 2- 3.00" exhausts from the 351 that was I removing. Can I use the the 2-3.00" exhaust by combining them with a y hose from the single exhaust 4.00" from the yanmar? Thats 4.00" to 2-3.00" hose with a Y connector.

2. What size inlet for raw should we use?Not what there is there now.
3. Can i use my mounts for the Velvet drive tranny 1:1 with a 1.25 shaft?
4. My prop is a nibral 14 x 10 -3 blade.I did some calculations and I think I need to go to a 14 x 14 - 3 blade cupped nibral.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Todd

[SCOOTER]

Well all you guys are real helpful on helping me decide what to do with my 22 stalker. I pulled the trigger sat. and found a 4lh-stp 240hp with low hours on it. It cam e from a dealer here in the NE and I have some questions for the install.

1. I have 2- 3.00" exhausts from the 351 that was I removing. Can I use the the 2-3.00" exhaust by combining them with a y hose from the single exhaust 4.00" from the yanmar? Thats 4.00" to 2-3.00" hose with a Y connector.

2. What size inlet for raw should we use?Not what there is there now.
3. Can i use my mounts for the Velvet drive tranny 1:1 with a 1.25 shaft?
4. My prop is a nibral 14 x 10 -3 blade.I did some calculations and I think I need to go to a 14 x 14 - 3 blade cupped nibral.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Todd



Todd,

The exhaust & the 1.25" shaft shouldn't be a problem.

If you're planing on bolting a BW 71C to that Yanmar, it won't last long. Also, I doubt that a 1:1 ratio is going to be recommended.

Have you talked to anyone at Mack Boring (508-946-9200) in Middleborough?

[tunaman552]

Hey Scooter,
I have discussed this with a few installer dealers and they are saying that the tranny 1:1 should work well with that engine in that size boat with the 1.25 shaft.I was more concerned with the exhaust with back pressure ect going from one 4.00" to 2- 3.00" hose.I am not sure if there will be enough clearance traveling outboard of the fish box in the bilge back to the transom for a 4.00" exhaust hose ect.

[SCOOTER]

Hey Scooter,
I have discussed this with a few installer dealers and they are saying that the tranny 1:1 should work well with that engine in that size boat with the 1.25 shaft.I was more concerned with the exhaust with back pressure ect going from one 4.00" to 2- 3.00" hose.I am not sure if there will be enough clearance traveling outboard of the fish box in the bilge back to the transom for a 4.00" exhaust hose ect.


Did you tell them it's a 71C, Not a 72C?

[tunaman552]

Not sure which 71 it is.

[SCOOTER]

Not sure which 71 it is.

Measure the diameter of the coupling.

4" = 71C (Part # 10-17-000-XXX)

5" = 72C (Part # 10-18-000-XXX)

Note: The 71C has a Max HP rating of 182 @ 3200 RPM when mated to a diesel, the Max for a 72C is 274 HP.

[Mistress]

For diesel the HP is even less I believe. I was near the cusp for pleasure duty on my 72C 1:1. That's why I had the trans upgraded by Huber to 925 lbf.ft. The Yanmar not being as low end torquey as the Cummins MAY be OK. Gotta look at the torque chart for that trans. Note that gear reduction is generally rated for less than a 1:1.

A 71C Would be destroyed in short order.

[SCOOTER]

The specs I listed came from the Velvet Drive Service Manual.

[Mistress]

diesel chart?

Torque at WOT is what you're looking for..

http://www.tadiesels.com/releases/Velvet_Drive_71_72_Inline_Rating.pdf

[SCOOTER]

diesel chart?

Torque at WOT is what you're looking for..

http://www.tadiesels.com/releases/Velvet_Drive_71_72_Inline_Rating.pdf

I hear ya, but I'm still betting he's got a 71C & that Yanmar's gonna twist the crap out of it.

http://www.simplicity-marine.com/Simplicity/images/Velvet_71_Charts.jpg

[Mistress]

YA...the 71C, generally supplied with all small blocks, will be an anchor in short order. The stock 72C appeared to me, based on the graphs, to be at the design limit with my Cummins (210 hp @ 2600 rpm). Tony at Boatdiesel said it would be fine. But since I was having it rebuilt anyway, I upgraded the clutch pack.

[SCOOTER]

Good move, money well spent in my book!

[tunaman552]

I checked the tranny and is the 71c.What tranny would be the best fit?Is rebuilt ok and go new. Any differences ect.Shouls stick with 1:1 or go to 1.5:1?????Looking for some help here.

Thanks
Todd:D

[Mistress]

With BW..go with a 72C. ZF has some nice compact co-axial trans too. I think it was the ZF63 is about the same package size and rated for more torque than the 72C.

For gear ratio, how big of prop can you swing? What's the HP @ rpm? What's the boat weigh? What's the waterline length?

I'd talk to someone like Tony on www.boatdiesel.com. Well worth the $25 to join vs. an improper $2K purchase. Don't have to join, but much more viewing authority if you do. Has a good prop/ratio calculator too.

[tunaman552]

I think I am going with the the 72c 1:1 tranny.Only can swing a 14 with the 1.25 shaft.The boat weight with gear etc I figured around 5000#'s.I did the calcs on boatdiesel as i am a member.any further advice woudl be really be helpful?

Thanks,
Todd

[Mistress]

Given the 14" limit, a 1:1 or or <1:1 would seem to be the only options.

Did you use the transmission calculator on boatdiesel too? I'd seriously talk to someone like Tony to get a good match.

What's the rated WOT rpm on that engine? If you're at or near the limit for a 72C unless it can be upgraded by someone like www.hubermarine.com. I already had a 72C, so for ease of install, I had mine rebuilt. To put the final touch on reliability I went with the Suredrive drive coupling at ~$700. If spec'ing new I might have made a different choice for a transmission. Would've been nice to have a trans that supported a trolling valve.

On the positive side of BW/VD's, they don't seem to be too sensitive to damper choice. The cast iron case would seem to eat up vibration better without making funny noises. Downside is the short dry spline.

[tunaman552]

After sudying some more about trannys available I have targeted the zf63c 1:1 with trolling valves for under 2k. I had a close friend do some asking around and the zf seems to be a much better versatile tranny for trolling valve etc.He gave me a great price on top of that.Hopefully in the next few weeks the engine starts to move right in and away we go.I will post some specs when all is done. Should be interesting on the specs in real time instead of the calc guess work estimates.

[Mistress]

Sounds like a good choice if it all fits. Most of the co-axial trans don't seem to accept trolling valves. $2K with valve sounds like a steal. If I had that option I prolly woulda dumped my VD-72C.