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View Full Version : Starter will not disengage!!



nautipelican
09-19-2010, 12:01 PM
Went to boat at sons house Friday to trial fit new windows on trailer queen, and also to run engine for a while. First couple of attempts to start were unsuccessful, and two subsequent cranks resulted in the starter just whineing like it was not engaged - I had to turn the motor slightly whit a wrench on the main pully nut to get it back to a crank. Motor started right up after a squirt of carb starter, but the starter did not release - the noise was horrible so I shut it right down. Tried banging on the starter to get it to "spring back." Tried to start it a couple more times, and each time the engine would start, but the grinding continued. Went home to think about it. The starter is brand new, installed by Jerry this last summer. before I pull the starter, I was wondering if it could be a short in the ignition that is keeping the starter engaged like it is always in the "start" position instead of the "on" position. Is there a way I can check for this???? How much damage am I doing when she starts up and the starter does not engage?? Do I have recourse to return the starter after 3 months?? Any and all thoughts or info would be appreciated.

GREGK
09-19-2010, 12:22 PM
sounds like a sticky bendix........not releasing the gear.....Sux that I think you will find you have to take the starter out and clean/lube the shaft that the starter gear slides on....probably slightly rusted.....When I put a starter in I always add a slight coat of bearing grease to that shaft,just for rust protection.

With the starter not releaseing you WILL burn it up

Paul McTavish
09-19-2010, 07:55 PM
Or tear up the ring gear on the flywheel ! Which I believe may have already happened because he had to turn the engine by hand to get it to engage after it freewheeled. He maybe is already missing a tooth on the flywheel.

GREGK
09-19-2010, 08:12 PM
Or tear up the ring gear on the flywheel ! Which I believe may have already happened because he had to turn the engine by hand to get it to engage after it freewheeled. He maybe is already missing a tooth on the flywheel.

That is a possblility but sometimes that just pushes the bendix back.....ring gears are soft but often forgiving

I would pull the starter and hand turn the motor over if I could see the flywheel...use a mirror if needed........If you do then mark the flywheel with a crayon to make sure you have seen the entire surface of the flywheels theeth..worn teeth is OK,missing is another story....I have seen this before and most of the time the flywheel is OK......I hope.....for his sake

Kurt
09-20-2010, 11:46 AM
W/ the low mounted Ford starter, you'd need a colonoscope to look down there. The Creator didn't endow us with eyes on stalks, mirrors or not... :tongue:

inetmug
09-20-2010, 04:27 PM
Went to boat at sons house Friday to trial fit new windows on trailer queen, and also to run engine for a while. First couple of attempts to start were unsuccessful, and two subsequent cranks resulted in the starter just whineing like it was not engaged - I had to turn the motor slightly whit a wrench on the main pully nut to get it back to a crank. Motor started right up after a squirt of carb starter, but the starter did not release - the noise was horrible so I shut it right down. Tried banging on the starter to get it to "spring back." Tried to start it a couple more times, and each time the engine would start, but the grinding continued. Went home to think about it. The starter is brand new, installed by Jerry this last summer. before I pull the starter, I was wondering if it could be a short in the ignition that is keeping the starter engaged like it is always in the "start" position instead of the "on" position. Is there a way I can check for this???? How much damage am I doing when she starts up and the starter does not engage?? Do I have recourse to return the starter after 3 months?? Any and all thoughts or info would be appreciated.

When I see starters fail on IBs in short order, it usually is due to water being thrown into the bendix. This can happen on top mount starters as well as if the flywheel is in water, it will fling it into the bendix.

Make sure your bilge is a dry as possible. Advise installing a small pump for just this purpose.

Make sure you do not have a hole in the bellhousing. YES, I have seen this.

Make sure your gasket on what would be called the dustboot on a car/truck, which is the plate is intact (hard to do).

On the 26,. the hull shape seems to natruially force water toward the front of the engine.

nautipelican
10-02-2010, 09:23 AM
OK I went to Shammy yesterday - tried starting again, same results - had times when there was no connection and I had to turn the engine slightly, and when it did connect and start there was this God-allfull grinding. So I pulled starter (fantastic experience!/didn't have any beer with me either) With starter out, looks like water has been inside. Looks to me like teeth are out and will not retract?!?!?!(Stuck in the "engage" position) I tried to run starter out of engine, buy rehooking up wires and holding starter against block for ground. when I turned the key, the starter did not turn, but made all kinds of grinding noise, and just jumped around. This is a brand new $300+ starter. (Installed in July). What do I do now???
I also took picts of flywheel - see below - looks really, really bad to me (very worn). what does everybody think? Please respond like you're talking to a nine year old - thats about the extent of my mechanical abilities.

Kurt
10-02-2010, 10:12 AM
The ring gear on the flywheel looks badly worn and the starter pinion may have been getting stuck/jammed against the short teeth. The gear needs to be replaced.

The starter gear and overrunning clutch look to be stuck in the extended/engaged position. Most likely yhe starter shaft is rusted or gummed up and the gear/clutch assy does not slide freely on it. That is relatively easily fixable. You should be able to slip a screwdriver between the pinion and the starter nosepiece and gently pry it back. Put a drop or two of oil on the starter shaft and the gear should free up.

The internal starter grinding noise is something else. It may be that the ring gear, in the internal drive of the starter, has been damaged from the starter having jammed against the flywheel gear. The internal ring gear in the starter is made from a fiber filled plastic/Nylon compound and the planetary gears may have chewed it up. Attached are a couple pics of the internal construction of the starter's gear reduction section. It's the ivory colored ring gear I'm talking about - all the rest of the gears are steel. Otherwise, that part of the starter is mechanically rebuildable.

You could try to see if ARCO will replace the starter under warranty but I believe they do not warrant the starter against water intrusion damage - but it is still worth a try.

After you get the flywheel ring gear replaced, there are remanufactured PMGR starters available for $55 - $60, new for ~$90. I'd still see what ARCO might do for you first.

mooch
10-02-2010, 11:50 AM
Bought a starter and alternator from here at the beginning of the 2009 season and been happy so far. Reasonable prices and shipping was relatively quick.

http://www.db-starter-alternator.com/

Severnman
10-02-2010, 07:37 PM
I'm with Kurt on this one - he may not have said this, but - that's a standard automotive starter, not a $300 special thing - or it looks like it to me. That's what my 351 has - a 70$ (new) starter. You didn't say what happened to your old one, but it's an easy tear down on these things... New ring gear - yes.

nautipelican
10-02-2010, 09:10 PM
OK, does this mean that I have to pull the engine?? or can I pull the tranny back???? Whats the procedure for installing a new ring gear - and can I do it or do I have to take it into a shop to have the old ring gear removed from the flywheel and a new one installed????

Also, just thought I'd mention, the Arco starter cost me $130 - I don't know where I got the idea it was alot more. My mistake.

Quik Fix
10-02-2010, 09:14 PM
You can do it yourself, in the boat. Pretty straight forward.

oldmako
10-02-2010, 09:32 PM
Tricky part is sliding the trans back because the mounts for it also double as the engine mounts. Or MAY depending on your installation.

Last time I moved mine, I bought some extra LONG bolts for the trans-engine mate. I then removed the short ones and replaced them with the long ones. In this manner I was able to simply slide my trans aft to gain access to the flywheel after removing the rear engine mount / stringer bolts. By doing this, I didn't have to sweat supporting the engine, and I didn't mess up the alignment of the mounts. BUT.....mine is a Ford, so this may or may not work on your boat. Of course, you may be limited by your shaft, rudder, and or other "stuff" which may interfere with the trans going aft. Your installation will probably be different than mine and may not allow this approach.

Just my opin, but that starter ought not have crapped out so quick. Its in much better condition than the one I pulled from my boat this spring. Mine had 5 or 6 years on it and was only pulled to diagnose a cranking issue.

Hard to believe that flywheel gear is so worn.

Hope this helps. If not, file it appropriately and good luck with your repair.

ps. Your luck with boats SUCKS! You are welcome to fish / drink with me anytime you find yourself in VB.

nautipelican
10-02-2010, 10:02 PM
Hey Jerry - You know my engine - can I do as oldmako suggests??? Just sliding back the trans on loger bolts sounds doable to me. will I have room to get into the flywheel and get it out???
Oldmako - how long were these bolts exzactly???

Quik Fix
10-02-2010, 10:44 PM
I've never tried that myself. I usually hold up the rear of the engine from overhead and slide the gear and bellhousing back. Remove the damper and flywheel. Very simple on your boat. You have plenty of room overhead and to the rear.
Looks to me as if the condition of the flywheel is the cause of the problem and starter could probably be saved. Clean it, lube it and test it. The teeth on the flywheel could push the bendix off course, so to speak, causing it to remain in the extended position. Thats my theory anyway.

Foxhole
10-02-2010, 11:31 PM
While you have the tranny pulled here are some things I would consider if it was mine.

1 If I could get a top mount starter bell housing at a reasonable price? I would do it.
2. I would possibly have the tranny checked out at while you have it out.
3. If your ring gear looks that bad your damper plate may be just as bad. I would look at it hard while I was in there.
It would suck if you changed the gear and soon discovered you had to pull the tranny again for something else.
Also soak those motor mounts with Kano Kroil and clean and paint everything while there.
Good luck!!

nautipelican
10-03-2010, 01:13 PM
The ring gear on the flywheel looks badly worn and the starter pinion may have been getting stuck/jammed against the short teeth. The gear needs to be replaced.

The starter gear and overrunning clutch look to be stuck in the extended/engaged position. Most likely yhe starter shaft is rusted or gummed up and the gear/clutch assy does not slide freely on it. That is relatively easily fixable. You should be able to slip a screwdriver between the pinion and the starter nosepiece and gently pry it back. Put a drop or two of oil on the starter shaft and the gear should free up.

The internal starter grinding noise is something else. It may be that the ring gear, in the internal drive of the starter, has been damaged from the starter having jammed against the flywheel gear. The internal ring gear in the starter is made from a fiber filled plastic/Nylon compound and the planetary gears may have chewed it up. Attached are a couple pics of the internal construction of the starter's gear reduction section. It's the ivory colored ring gear I'm talking about - all the rest of the gears are steel. Otherwise, that part of the starter is mechanically rebuildable.

You could try to see if ARCO will replace the starter under warranty but I believe they do not warrant the starter against water intrusion damage - but it is still worth a try.

After you get the flywheel ring gear replaced, there are remanufactured PMGR starters available for $55 - $60, new for ~$90. I'd still see what ARCO might do for you first.

What the H#%% is a "pinion"??? I can't tell where you are separating the starter. Is there some bolts or screws that I have to take out first?? I can't see that this one was made to come apart at all. This one has crimps around where the two metals meet that makes it "impossible" to separate the two without a sledgehammer.
If this whole job is going to be as "straight foreward" as taking apart the starter than maybe I sould just sell the D@M& thing for parts.

Quik Fix
10-03-2010, 03:14 PM
I'm with Kurt on this one - he may not have said this, but - that's a standard automotive starter, not a $300 special thing - or it looks like it to me. That's what my 351 has - a 70$ (new) starter. You didn't say what happened to your old one, but it's an easy tear down on these things... New ring gear - yes.

Please tell us all where you buy your new ARCO starters for $70. BTW, Kens is a new Arco MARINE starter. I installed it for him although I did not sell it to him.
Thanks Jerry

Kurt
10-03-2010, 03:15 PM
First, let me say that if you have not had experience taking things like starters apart, you need to proceed carefully as some parts interlock, are plastic and can be damaged if treated heavy-handed. If you are uncomfortable with or are not sure about the description, I would not proceed - take the starter to someone who is familiar them.

To take that starter apart there is one connection (the wire link into the starter body) and 4 screws that allow the whole thing to be opened up. I can give you a step-by-step but, again, care and attention are the operative words:

Because it may be very difficult to move the starter gear on the shaft, it is probably best to leave it in the extended position to aid in disassembly in Step #3 below.
Remove the nut, attaching the cable connection into the motor housing, to the large, lower terminal of the solenoid - disconnect the cable from the solenoid - leave it loose.
Remove the two T-25 Torx screws that hold the solenoid to the Aluminum nosepiece casting - tip the front of the solenoid away from the starter body to disengage it from the Nylon fork linkage and slide it out of the casting. Be aware, that when the starter pinion gear is extended, the solenoid armature is going to be under a reasonably strong spring tension and will move into the extended position as the Torx screws are loosened. The fork lever needs to be closest to the solenoid mounting opening in order to disengage the solenoid armature from it - that's why I said to leave the starter gear extended in Step #1.
There are four (4) hex bolt heads at the back end of the motor housing. The two (2) that are closest to the OD of the housing are the ones that hold the black motor housing to the Aluminum nosepiece casting. They have 8mm (~5/16") heads. Remove these two bolts - thwy are ~4-1/2" long. The other two screws have 6mm (~1/4") heads and hold the brush assy to the motor housing - DO NOT TOUCH THEM.
The starter case will separate at the joint between the Aluminum casting and the steel motor housing. Take it apart carefully as there are 3 major pieces involved - the motor housing and armature, the cast Aluminum nosepiece and the planetary drive assy. Take note of their orientation to one another and put witness marks on them so they go back together properly aligned.
When the starter comes apart, there are two possible ways it may happen. a) The planetary gear assy will stay with the motor housing and come out of the nosepiece or, b) it will stay in the nosepiece and the motor housing will come off by itself. If the motor housing comes off alone, make sure that the armature stays in it, otherwise you will have fun trying to reinstall the brushes and I won't go into that here. There is a thrust ball in the bearing where the front of the motor shaft goes in the planetary gear assy - make sure not to lose it if it comes out. Ususally the greas i there holds it in - just be aware that it is there.
There is a rubber insert in the activation fork area. That needs to come out in order to slide the planetary gear assy out of the nosepiece - note its installation orientation. There is also a cupped washer at the free end of the starter gear shaft - it may stay in the nosepiece or stay on the shaft, don't lose it.
The starter gear and clutch assy is retained on the starter shaft by a snap ring so there is no concern about it coming apart.
The metal cover on the back side of the planetary gear assy is retained by a plastic clip on the side. Be very careful about removing it, it can break easily (first hand experience here).
Remove the cover plate and you will see the internals of the planetary reduction gear. My guess is that you will find that the filled Nylon ring gear (which carries the whole assy) has had its teeth chewed up.

You may be able to get that Nylon carrier/ring gear as a replacement part from ARCO or they may sell the planetary/shaft/starter gear assy as a whole - you'd have to contact them about it.

At this point, you can lube and free up the starter gear/ clutch assy on the spiral-keyed shaft as necessary but I'd think getting a whole new assy would be the better idea.

Again, if this is unfamiliar territory, I would recommend that you DO NOT MESS WITH IT but take it to a starter repair place.

Kurt
10-03-2010, 03:21 PM
Please tell us all where you buy your new ARCO starters for $70. BTW, Kens is a new Arco MARINE starter. I installed it for him although I did not sell it to him.
Thanks Jerry
Well, it won't be an ARCO starter but they state it is marine approved...

Remanufactured, $55:

http://www.dbelectrical.com/p-2298-mercruiser-marine-omc-cw-starter-ford-engine-3205-marine-reman-sfd0001.aspx

New, $90:

http://www.dbelectrical.com/p-2295-new-mercruiser-marine-omc-cw-starter-ford-engine-3205-marine-sfd0001.aspx

nautipelican
10-03-2010, 05:11 PM
Kurt - Thank you for the detailed instructions I appreciate your patience with this mechanical dufus.

I think I already screwed this starter up more than it was already. I cannot get one of the two star screws out. I do not think I'm going to get any further with it.

Tell me that getting the ring gear changed out is not going to be as bad as getting into the starter?!?!?.......or should I start looking for a mechanic?

The one thing positive I can say about today is that the Flacons showed me that as frustrating as the whole process can be, the only thing that matters is to keep plugging toward the final goal.........and eventually...you get there.

Kurt
10-03-2010, 06:00 PM
To get the flywheel ring gear replaced, you will need to get the trans and bellhousing off, or moved back, out of the way, remove the flex (damper) plate and unbolt the flywheel from the crankshaft. That would involve blocking up the aft end of the engine because the rear mounts are on the transmission.

Then, you take the flywheel to an automotive machine shop and they will remove the old ring gear from the flywheel and install a new one. The gear is basically pressed on and is not something to be messed with unless you know what you are doing and have the right equipment.

While it's not an undoable task, it is certainly not one I'd look forward to.

Severnman
10-03-2010, 06:39 PM
Please tell us all where you buy your new ARCO starters for $70. BTW, Kens is a new Arco MARINE starter. I installed it for him although I did not sell it to him.
Thanks Jerry

I wasn't commenting on the specific brand of starter, just the availability of starters for a 302. The part number on the 2 that I have for my 351 comes up as an automotive model. Plenty are available for way under $70 on eBay motors. Out of curiosity, what makes the ARCO a 'marine' starter?
Mike

Quik Fix
10-03-2010, 07:06 PM
I wasn't commenting on the specific brand of starter, just the availability of starters for a 302. The part number on the 2 that I have for my 351 comes up as an automotive model. Plenty are available for way under $70 on eBay motors. Out of curiosity, what makes the ARCO a 'marine' starter?
Mike

There is a difference between Marine and automotive starters and IN MY OPINON, ARCO is the best quality you can buy. Dollar Tree sells spray paint but I paint my boats with Dupont. The starter on my 351 costs me $216 and retails for $261. Think that may be different than a $55 one on E-bay? I know about the $55 starters but chose to spend $216. I,m not a mechanic, I do fiberglass work. I can rebuild your hatch so that it looks brand new and breaks as soon as you step on it or fix it so that it will look brand new and hold your engine. One costs more than the other.
Sorry for the rant. Raining again here.

oldmako
10-03-2010, 09:47 PM
If you have a console which tilts out of the way, then don't follow my advice. Its much easier to support the engine from above and you will have far more room to work. The ONLY reason I used the bolt method is because my console is fixed and that I have to wrench through a tiny hatch and from behind the engine.

Quik Fix
10-03-2010, 09:48 PM
Oldmako
Ken has a cuddy.

Severnman
10-04-2010, 06:25 AM
There is a difference between Marine and automotive starters and IN MY OPINON, ARCO is the best quality you can buy. Dollar Tree sells spray paint but I paint my boats with Dupont. The starter on my 351 costs me $216 and retails for $261. Think that may be different than a $55 one on E-bay? I know about the $55 starters but chose to spend $216. I,m not a mechanic, I do fiberglass work. I can rebuild your hatch so that it looks brand new and breaks as soon as you step on it or fix it so that it will look brand new and hold your engine. One costs more than the other.
Sorry for the rant. Raining again here.

QF - no problem with the rant. I'm not advocating automotive over marine, just commenting based on my experience. I'm not a mechanic either. The 'marine' starter that's been on my boat for the last 1200 hrs came from DIM, and my spare was original equipment on a 90s vintage Shamrock. They are the same part, and the part number is the same one that's on the side of the automotive version. I am curious about the 'marine' designation on starters.
Mike

nautipelican
10-04-2010, 07:17 AM
Its Monday morning....... a fresh week ahead. I would like to get my head around this project before I actually physically start it. Is there a blog with pictures that goes thru this procedure (or one similar?)? I have been into the archives and have picked up wome knowledge, but I have not found anything specific yet. Obviously I am a greenhorn to mechanics/engines/boats, but I do think I can work my way thru it if I had step by step guideance. I don't know if any of you out there are willing to spoon-feed me thru this. I'll probably only be able to work on it once a week, so I imagine its going to take me at least a couple months to get this done. Anyhow, I got my tax statements in the mail Saturday(property taxes), and the money is going to be tight until January. Maybe someone can give me the first three or four steps - i.e. do I need to drop the tiller/remove the prop?? or can I get by it??? Do I disengage the shaft from the tranny?? whats first??? Thanks for the help everyone................

Capt Don
10-08-2010, 09:04 AM
I don't recall ever seeing a Ford 302 starter with a solenoid mounted directly on it. Is that a "newer" style?

I can't imagine using that type of setup in a Shamrock with as much water as gets thrown around down there by the flywheel.

It is bad enough with a standard Ford type starter in that application, but at least you don't have the issue of the linkage between the solenoid and starter bendix to deal with on the older style.


Jerry, do you recall if this boat had the standard Ford solenoid on the engine as well?

Just curious. That starter just doesn't look right to me for his application.


BTW, that flywheel looks like it is about ready to strip out, as others have advised.

Kurt
10-08-2010, 09:43 AM
Don...

That is the "new" style PMGR starter for SB Fords. It is ARCO P/N 70125 (or 70200 if bought w/ the re-wiring kit) and they started using them maybe 8 years ago. If you look in ARCO's catalog, they note that the older style Ford starters (70110) are going to be NLA - "To be replaced with 70200 when present stock is exhausted." See attached pic...

It is actually simpler inside than the older one - no field windings and it is much lighter. The solenoid is easily replaced if there is a problem with it.