Gas Tank Woes

[Damon]

Inspected the top of the starboard fuel tank today on my 1986 26' PH and discovered that it was heavily pitted all the way through the aluminum. The pitted area was under a thick pile of foam, which was holding water like a sponge, with one of the holes being about 1/4 inch in diameter. I Plan to pull the tank out tomorrow for further inspection once I get the foam out. The port tank will follow next week.

If you haven't done so already, PLEASE inspect and/or fix your fuel tanks, especially if you have an older Shamrock. It really isn't that bad of a task. Even though I did not smell gas, I know some fuel had to be leaking from the tank with it filled up. Kind'a lucky, I guess.

I despise that foam! I wish there was some other proven approach other than the pour-in junk. I know it won't make a difference with the tank coated, but I still do not like the idea of water trapping under and in the foam.

[No Tacks]

you did a smart thing to inspect those tanks..You can get 2 tanks for around 750.00 brandy new..SAINT ELMO was with you up till now.... :D

[DanM]

I got lucky (so far). Yesterday I pulled the deck off my port tank because the Idiot that owned the boat before me had taken that cover off. The screw holes must have been stripped in the process so what did he do? Put in bigger screws that's what! And when those stripped? Rite, bigger ones! When they didn't hold he just left the deck corner sort of sticking up in the air. Now, the top of the tank was remarkably intact. Grey paint was flaking and a very light sprinkling of salt that was easily wiped clean. The foam was loose and dry. The sides of the tank and the floor that I could see looked dry. No odor of fuel at all. I plan on renting an indoor storage next fall and use the next winter to "Lep-o-rize" both of the tanks.

My next issue is how to fix the cover and mounting surface so that I can screw the cover back down. On this I'll take any help you guys can come up with. Oh Yeah, Can I use "Great Stuff" (you know, the foam in a can from Home-Cheapo) to foam the top where the old stuff came up?

[Leprechaun]

My next issue is how to fix the cover and mounting surface so that I can screw the cover back down. On this I'll take any help you guys can come up with. Oh Yeah, Can I use "Great Stuff" (you know, the foam in a can from Home-Cheapo) to foam the top where the old stuff came up?

As far as the oversized holes in the deck plate - two ways to fix - put a piece of masking tape over the holes on the bottom side and then fill them with either 1/MarineTex or 2/Thickened Epoxy resin, let the filler set up and then redrill the correct #8-sized holes back thru the filler. Then you can use some Evercoat gelcoat scratch-patch mixed with coloring agent to match the light cream color of the deck plate. With a little creative mixing, that is.

Now if you go to my original post about this problem in the archives you will find the solution to the rest of your problem - that being the oversized holes you will have to screw the deckplate down into.

This is solved by installing thin backing strips under the deck of the tank holds all the way around their perimeter. use either Trex/Starboard/Oak - take your pick.

Here's the links:

http://www.fishtheclassic.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=196&highlight=fuel+tank+pulling


http://www.fishtheclassic.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=197&highlight=fuel+tank+pulling

Oh, as for that foam-in-a-can from Homo Depot - that would lead to a rapid weight gain of your boat and offer about zero compression strength to hold the tank steady in the hold. It is a cheapo insulating foam intended for filling voids in door frames and the such, is open celled, so it sucks up and holds water like a camel, melts when exposed to any petroleum product (Like spilled gas) and is just totally unsuited for this purpose. Or any other purpose on a boat that I can think of.

Stay away.

Have a good time screwing.

The deck plates that is.

rgds, Leprechaun

[Damon]

THIS SUCKS!

My nuckles are bloodied and I can't get the tank loose from the POS foam crap! I'm off to that rip-off shake-down operation called "Home-Depot" to find a longer screw driver because mine is only "average-sized". Man, I wish I had a bigger sized screw-driver to get the job done! These guys went ape-shit with the that pour in foam junk on my boat.

O.K., I'm done venting.

Hey Lep, I can't find the 60" fiber glass cloth without buying a roll of it for $250+ here in San Diego. Can I use the 36/38" stuff and use it long-wise to cover the bottom first then the top? The tank is 24" by 51". Did you use the "medium" grade (6 oz) cloth? Also, will the "Boat Yard" polyester resin work for the job?

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&langId=-1&catalogId=10001&productId=72268&catalogId=10001&classNum=673&subdeptNum=11160&storeNum=4

[Leprechaun]

Damon, Damon, Damon, alvays mit za drama.

Yes to both of your questions. There's no reason in the works that you can't put two pieces of glass cloth together on one tank surface. You can buy it in those little packs of Evercoat glass from any major chandlery.

But are you telling me that in the gigantic great state of Californication that you cannot find one marine supply house that has a roll of glass cloth for you to cut a piece off of?

Geesh - no wonder I pay so much in NY taxes - at least I can get a piece of glass cloth the size I need.

Yep, that's certainly worth $7500 in property taxes.

No doubt about it.

Oh God, its just pathetic.

rgds, Leprechaun

[Lolo Kane]

Damon my friend, why did you not call me? I can get the glass you need. I have several friends in the surfboard industry and the boat building industry. They all owe me in some way. If you still need some, give me a call.

I mounted my "high speed fairing block" and tri-ducer this weekend. Can anyone tell me how to get 5200 out of my hair?

Lolo

[Damon]

Mike,

Shave your head!!! It's the new style these days. Heck, your wife might start rubbing that shining thing in an attempt to get the genie to come out and play....

Yes, I still need the 60" fiber glass cloth. Let me try a few more sources here locally first then I'll give you a call.

The darnest thing I discovered on the port side. The bulkhead forward of the fuel tank (between the compartment for the fuel tank and the enclosed compartment supposily full of foam) has either bulged out or there was a manufacturing glitch. I am assuming that the buliders poured too much foam in the compartment causing the bulkhead to bulge out like that. A little difficult because it gives me less room to work with the fuel tank.

While digging out the foam, I sure did smell raw gasoline on that port side. Due to the tight space, I'm still having a hard time getting the tank out on that side.

[grreatdog]

Actually, I can tell you how to get 5200 out of your hair, just don't ask me how I know. I found that the same 3M adhesive remover that takes it off the boat takes it out of your hair. Leaves it shiny and full of body without any of that annoying girly smell. I just dumped some in a rag and had my wife wipe it off my hair. I still have hair so it must not have any "Nair affect".

[Lolo Kane]

I think I'll just cut my hair. Hopefully I won't have to shave it!

That 5200 gets on everything! It's on my swim step, my driveway, my trailer, most of my tools, my clothes, my battery switch, my elbows, my hair. And I was trying to be clean & neat with this job. :oops:

Actually my down fall was when my one and only caulking gun broke in the middle of the job. I was forced to push the 5200 out of the tube with the handle of a scew driver. What a f'n mess.

Lolo

[grreatdog]

Try the 3M adhesive remover. It even cuts through dried 5200. I was pretty impressed with the stuff. I suppose that the company that makes it should know how to get rid of it. Kind of like my theory that Norton and McAfee actually send out computer viruses so that you can buy their software to get rid of them.

[Leprechaun]

Damon -

"The darnest thing I discovered on the port side. The bulkhead forward of the fuel tank (between the compartment for the fuel tank and the enclosed compartment supposily full of foam) has either bulged out or there was a manufacturing glitch. I am assuming that the buliders poured too much foam in the compartment causing the bulkhead to bulge out like that."

That's one possible expanation.

Another is that the compartment has water in it and that water froze at some point and pushed that bulkhead out a bit.

I found this exact situation on my boat on the strbd side and dismissed it with the same thinking you wrote of. Only much later, upon reflecting on the find's implications and then reading about all the saturated foam that people are finding in those "Sealed" compartments, only then did I put two and two together and come up with the my other "Doomsday" scenario.

Why not drill a small 1/4" hole down low thru that fwd blkhead and see if anything drips out and runs back into the tank hold?

Too late for me to check my theory without a major job doing it all over - but you're right there.

Take a look and put both of our simple minds to rest.

Your Democratically-oppressed friend, Leprechaun

[Damon]

I will go ahead and drill the hole (heck, I might drill holes on both sides to see what's up). Just cover the hole back up with marine-tex, right?

I just rained about an inch in just 2 hours. That's a lot for San Diego. Looks like the fuel tank project will have to continue later in the week.

[Lolo Kane]

Damon, you might be able to dissolve that foam with some type of solvent. Might be easier than trying to cut it / dig it out. But it might also make quite a mess!

Lolo

[Brian]

That "bulkhead" forward of the tanks is simply a very thin piece of glass. I simply cut it out; dried the foam and let is set open over the entire winter with a heater on it on week-ends and simply glassed it up again in the spring.

Brian

[No Tacks]

Damon im doing this job too I made big holes like 1 1/4 size in front and aft compartments and that bulkhead is like 1/4 thin...I drained the water out and filled the hole with caulking..I left the bulge there cause it didnt interfere with my installation good luck....

[DanM]

Well after reading the posts in this thread since my last entry, I decided to 'jump in'. I pulled the cover all the way off the port tank and really got in there to look at things. Glad I did. The paint is loose so I began to brush it away. PITS! (Yeah I know you're all going 'no S*#t Sherlock')
I thought I was special :cry: . I broke my ba..s pulling the tank out and spent the day sanding it down to clean metal. Thank goodness there is no holes like so many others.
Ater I read Lep's past posts on what kind of resin and hardner to use I'll get it done over the next few days. I
I also began another project. 3" stainless (316 seamless) exhaust pipe in the bilge to replace the 2 3/8" galvanized pipe that came on the boat. Any thoughts on using this material? I replaced all the hardwall rubber and I'll button that job up soon. New thermostat as well. Risers looked pretty good, I figgure another 2 years.

Oh yeah, Lep. It ran great when I fired it up. No cracked block! Next winter I'll follow your advice and save myself a little anxiety. :wink:

[Agapemou]

One tip I found very useful is when you are moving or working on gas tanks which still have some fuel in them, drop a cup or two of dry ice down the intake and let it melt. THe co2 it gives off will flush the tank of oxygen preventing an explosion even if there is a static spark.

[Damon]

I'm going for the 4 lb density foam for the job. Here's a great source for foam at a great price:

http://www.shopmaninc.com/foam.html

Also, prior to foaming the tanks in, it might be a good idea to wrap the tank in plastic (trash bag would work) so the foam will not adhere to the glassed tank. This will make removing the foam in the future, if necessary, much easier.

[Damon]

Here's an update on my fuel tank project:

-As Lep suggested, I drilled 2 holes in the bulging bulkhead (one hole at the lowest point and the other hole at the portion of the bulkhead bulging out the furthest). Tested the foam for moisture and it was a dry as a desert sun-baked chicken bone. Filled the holes back up with Marine-Tex and painted the bulkhead with Interlux Bilge-coat paint.

-Remember when I said that I smelled raw gasoline when I was removing the foam from the port fuel tank compartment? Well, when I removed the fuel tank (still had a little gas in it) and sat it down on the concrete, there was a puddle of fuel on my driveway. Yep, there were major pitted holes on the bottom of the port side fuel tank and the only thing that stopped it from pouring into my bilge was the "hardened" foam. Did I smell gas in the bilge when I ran 60+ miles out? No..... The "smell test" did not work in this case in determining if my fuel tanks had major problems. If any of you have a Shamrock that is at least 10 years old, best to removed the tanks and get it over with.

-The toughest part of glassing the tanks is the corners. After laying the cloth, I reinforced the edges and corners with 4" wide 9 oz. strips of cloth tape (the edges of this cloth are sewed so that strands of the stuff doesn't come loose). After some research and a little of my own testing, I went with the Epoxy. My initial concern was that the Epoxy would crack if flexed. After playing around with the stuff, I found that it was very tolerant to flexing. From my days of messing around with the Polyester resins on my surfboards, it seems that the Epoxy is more flexible. It stuck to the aluminum very strongly (you cannot get that stuff off the aluminum unless you sand it completely down), just like it was part of the aluminum itself. However, seeing that the polyester resins have been proven to accomplish the same job for the fuel tanks, I would feel confident with either resins (epoxy is 3 times the cost of polyester).

-The cut out part of the deck plate where the fiberglass cowling attaches and the hoses come up has exposed wood, which mine was slightly rotted. Sand, dry, and treat the exposed wood.

-Is there any difference between the GE type II Silicone (for windows and doors) from Home Depot and the 3M "Marine" silicone you get from the boating stores? The "Marine" stuff if 3 times the cost of the HD junk. I was thinking of using the HD stuff for the deck plate flanges themselves when I reattach the deck plate and using the "Marine" stuff to fill in the joints once the deck plates are in.

-I need a coffee break!!

[Leprechaun]

The difference is in the price and the somewhat dubious claim that the marine stuff has an "Anti-mildew" agent in it.

Big deal. I used the home-grade stuff from Homo Depot and I just inspected the work this past weekend - Still holding up fine a season and a half since installation.

rgds, Leprechaun

[Damon]

Lep,

The GE type II Silicone for bathrooms and tubs also has the anti-mildew agent in it. I'll return the stuff for windows and doors that does not have the anti-mildew agent in it and go with the stuff for bathrooms and tubs (they are both type II Silicone) which does have the anti-mildew agent in it.

[Lolo Kane]

It sounds like you're having a lot of fun Damon! Now that you have experience you can come up here and have fun with my tanks too! Or at least show me how. My tanks look good on top, I wonder what they look like on the bottom.

Did you hear about all the Yellowtail caught this weekend out of SD? Let's go get some! Now that would be fun. Hurry up and finish those tanks!

[Damon]

Lolo, you teaser, you are now messing around with my head......We needs to get YTs! I'll try to wrap this job up as fast as I can......

[Tony]

Someone, I think its GE, make a silicone caulk in a close colour match to my decks, which is light brown or beige. Can't wait to tackle those tanks, if only to get rid of that godawful white caulk around my deck plates!

[DanM]

I finished mine up last week. I used 5200 to seal around the deck plates but I didn't use anything between (under) the plate and the flange. I did use trex decking for the screws to bite into, man, do they grip! It truly is an awesome feeling when you sink the last screw into that deck plate and promenade across it, beer in hand. Knowing that it's done and there'll be no need to revisit that job again. Get it done Damon, the fishes is waiting!

[Damon]

If you used 5200 only in the joints, then you are good to go. I do not want to seal the deck plates permanently, so in order to seal out the water the best I can, I plan to go nuts on the Silicone. I also plan to silicone or glue (3M 4200 or less) the base and the edges (against the hull) of the fiberglass cowling that covers the fuel hoses. I should have a pretty water tight job once done. The Silicone will need to be revisited every few years or so.

[grreatdog]

If there is an old Shamrock right of passage, I must be getting close. I did the Holley thing, replaced risers and manifolds, checked the fuel tanks (they will keep till next winter) and finally opened up the front bilge area. And I must say that I wasn't quite prepared for what I found. Maybe in the bilge of a 40 year old shrimp boat and definitely on the refloated yacht that I worked on, but not in a never been sunk little pleasure boat.

Everything was completely coated in a lovely THICK oily goo that somehow also had a crust. All of this topped with a couple of inches of oily mud from the anchor locker. And I don't want to even think about what might have drained in there from the potti well. It was actually rather like a marsh I surveyed at the steel plant in Baltimore, only done in miniature. So after shoveling out the mud with a garden tool and a half gallon or so of Simple Green, she is white fiberglass again (thank God and high taxes that we have a lined land fill here).

What I also found was a groove along the hull seam that is about an inch deep with one spot about two inches deep and about a finger wide from the front of the keel up into the stem. I don't see any reasonable way to use a bilge pump to keep this thing dry. After pondering the situation over a hard earned beer, I remembered a post from someone who proposed filling the forward sump with silicone sealant. Well I believe that I am going to try it to fill that groove. I considered epoxy putty but I fear introducing a hard spot in the hull that might crack. So I believe that this will at least create enough of a flat sump to allow me to use a normal bilge pump in there.

Also, after removing 14 machine screws with lock nuts and 32 screws to get in there, I am putting a deck plate in the little "fish box" in front of the engine. At least now I know why she rode nose down when trolling.